123Ignition Static Timing, Engine will not start Options

[SteveNMaine]

I just setup my carbureted 2056 with 123Ignition distributor and cannot get it started.

Basics: Compression is good, new dual carbs and there is spark.

I have read several methods of setting static timing,

Method 1: 123 manual says set timing marks at 0 TDC and turn distributor till light turns green, I did that, no Joy.

Method 2: Set timing marks at 7.5 BTDC and turn distributor till light turns green, I did that, it sounded more like it wanted to start but no joy.

Should I continue to advance the timing?

[jim_hoyland]

Call Ed at 1-2-3
(440) 668-8164

He’s the guru

[wbgoggans]

Call Ed at 1-2-3
(440) 668-8164

He’s the guru

I recently installed my ignition 123 using method number 1. I have not taken my motor off the stand yet so can't confirm whether or not that is correct. I am told it's import to rotate the dizzy the opposite direction of how the rotor will rotate while running when you are looking for the greenlight. our motors rotate clockwise so you would rotate your dizzy counter clockwise until you see the greenlight. Please keep us updated if you find a solution. would be cool to start an ignition 123 troubleshooting thread.

[FlacaProductions]

Yup. Install and rotate counter-clockwise juuuuust until the green light comes on.

Lots of us have worked thru this - keep us posted with details. You'll get it. It's worth it.

[Robarabian]

What Flaca said... you don't just turn it... align the rotor to the #1 plug wire while at TDC. Then power it up. turn COUNTER CLOCKWISE until the light turns green. Back it off till it turns off and then back to "just turning green." you want to be just at that edge of it turns on. You then push the rotor (not the whole dizzy) slightly clockwise (the direction the rotor turns) and make sure it stays green while you snug down the dizzy. You are static.

[dtmehall]

not to be a dinosaur, but this is a very similar procedure to the one described in 'How to keep your Volkswagen Alive' book by John Muir.

[SteveNMaine]

I have the 123/TUNE+4-R-V-POR What should I be programming in for advance? Maybe that is the issue?

[FlacaProductions]

Here's a note I have saved from Ian concerning setup that might help you: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=3110141


Jake Raby taught me a simple method. First, follow the directions for installation, which will get you to a point where the car runs. Set a curve point for 8 degrees @ 1K RPM, a point for 27 degrees @ 3000 rpm and a point for 27 degrees at 5K. Load that curve into the 123 distributor. Then hook up a timing light, cap off the vac advance and rev the engine to 3K RPM. I like to aim at the notch on the flywheel. Rotate the 123 until you’re showing 27 degrees BTDC @3K and then lock the unit down. The app and dizzy are now synched and you’ve approximated a simple stock curve. Now the fun begins. Drive around and see if there are any flat spots in acceleration. Make note of the rpm’s where the power seems to dip. Add points there to fine tune the advance. You’ll probably need a little more advance a little earlier. You may also need to tweak your idle advance a bit until it runs smoothly. Of course the condition of your engine, altitude and a bunch of other factors come into play.

[Superhawk996]

I still have not been able to get my 2056 to start with the 123Ignition. It sounds like it wants to start but no joy.

I followed the installation instructions and even talked to the factory, no joy.

I have tried almost every curve I can find on the forums, no joy.

I am sure it is a timing thing but just cannot figure it out.

I am just about ready to give up and sell off the project, two 1974 1.8 bodies, three engines (1.7, 1.8 and the 2056), two side shifter transaxles, etc.

I see no path forward; it has just become too frustrating. This will be the first project I ever walked away from.

Will be easier to help you if all info is kept in one thread

Don’t give up.

In order to help you’re going to have to do some work to better describe what has been done, what the symptoms are right now, and you’ll likely need to do some hands on troubleshooting. You mention new carbs. You don’t mention if the engine has ever successfully run on those carbs with the old distributor.

First off without even knowing your symptoms, I’m going to state that it is possible that in the process of removing your old distributor, that the distributor (dizzy for short) drive gear can be partially lifted out as the dizzy is removed and then the dizzy drive gear can drop back into place one or more teeth off. This can happen without you even knowing it has happened.

To get to the bottom of this will require some significant effort on your part. The best approach will be to start from scratch and reverify timing all the way back to Cylinder #1 top dead center of the compression stroke.

If you’re game, you’ll find the help you need.

[IronHillRestorations]

If it ran well before you pulled the distributor, then the distributor drive is probably indexed properly. I’ve never had the drive gear come out with the distributor.

When in doubt take off the valve cover to make sure you’re on TDC #1, you could be 180* out, remember it takes two revolutions of the crankshaft to complete the firing order. Next make sure the distributor drive is properly installed per the workshop manual. Then make sure the rotor and cap are on #1.

123 distributors are installed at zero degrees on TDC #1. The distributor handles all the advance.

[SteveNMaine]

Here's a note I have saved from Ian concerning setup that might help you: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=3110141


Jake Raby taught me a simple method. First, follow the directions for installation, which will get you to a point where the car runs. Set a curve point for 8 degrees @ 1K RPM, a point for 27 degrees @ 3000 rpm and a point for 27 degrees at 5K. Load that curve into the 123 distributor. Then hook up a timing light, cap off the vac advance and rev the engine to 3K RPM. I like to aim at the notch on the flywheel. Rotate the 123 until you’re showing 27 degrees BTDC @3K and then lock the unit down. The app and dizzy are now synched and you’ve approximated a simple stock curve. Now the fun begins. Drive around and see if there are any flat spots in acceleration. Make note of the rpm’s where the power seems to dip. Add points there to fine tune the advance. You’ll probably need a little more advance a little earlier. You may also need to tweak your idle advance a bit until it runs smoothly. Of course the condition of your engine, altitude and a bunch of other factors come into play.

Unfortunately, I went through the setup procedure even with the help of the factory folks over the phone and still cannot get the engine to start. I am going to go back to the Bosch distributor and if that doesn't work I am going to scrap the whole project.

[IronHillRestorations]

Make sure there’s a center contact in the distributor cap. I’ve seen that problem a couple times.

[SteveNMaine]

Here's a note I have saved from Ian concerning setup that might help you: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?s=&...t&p=3110141


Jake Raby taught me a simple method. First, follow the directions for installation, which will get you to a point where the car runs. Set a curve point for 8 degrees @ 1K RPM, a point for 27 degrees @ 3000 rpm and a point for 27 degrees at 5K. Load that curve into the 123 distributor. Then hook up a timing light, cap off the vac advance and rev the engine to 3K RPM. I like to aim at the notch on the flywheel. Rotate the 123 until you’re showing 27 degrees BTDC @3K and then lock the unit down. The app and dizzy are now synched and you’ve approximated a simple stock curve. Now the fun begins. Drive around and see if there are any flat spots in acceleration. Make note of the rpm’s where the power seems to dip. Add points there to fine tune the advance. You’ll probably need a little more advance a little earlier. You may also need to tweak your idle advance a bit until it runs smoothly. Of course the condition of your engine, altitude and a bunch of other factors come into play.

Unfortunately, I went through the setup procedure even with the help of the factory folks over the phone and still cannot get the engine to start. I am going to go back to the Bosch distributor and if that doesn't work I am going to scrap the whole project.

It is getting spark, I just can't get the timing right.

[emerygt350]

Have you tried starting fluid?

Timing is just timing. You can be way, way, way off and the engine will do something. Normally a frightening something, but something.

[Stratfink]

Hang in there Steve. Several of us struggled to get the initial set up correct and to get the car started with the 123 - but it’s worth it once up and running.

Sounds like you have spark - but one thing to check is making sure the connections to the ignition coil are not reversed (ask me how I know).

I also found that setting a flat curve at 10 degrees in the app and then using my timing light at 10 degrees was an easy way to sync the dizzy and did not require holding any specific rpm while setting timing. Once sync’d the curves from others can be programmed in as your start point. There are threads with this technique out there and I’m happy to search for them if needed.

[SteveNMaine]

I still have not been able to get my 2056 to start with the 123Ignition. It sounds like it wants to start but no joy.

I followed the installation instructions and even talked to the factory, no joy.

I have tried almost every curve I can find on the forums, no joy.

I am sure it is a timing thing but just cannot figure it out.

I am just about ready to give up and sell off the project, two 1974 1.8 bodies, three engines (1.7, 1.8 and the 2056), two side shifter transaxles, etc.

I see no path forward; it has just become too frustrating. This will be the first project I ever walked away from.

Will be easier to help you if all info is kept in one thread

Don’t give up.

In order to help you’re going to have to do some work to better describe what has been done, what the symptoms are right now, and you’ll likely need to do some hands on troubleshooting. You mention new carbs. You don’t mention if the engine has ever successfully run on those carbs with the old distributor.

First off without even knowing your symptoms, I’m going to state that it is possible that in the process of removing your old distributor, that the distributor (dizzy for short) drive gear can be partially lifted out as the dizzy is removed and then the dizzy drive gear can drop back into place one or more teeth off. This can happen without you even knowing it has happened.

To get to the bottom of this will require some significant effort on your part. The best approach will be to start from scratch and reverify timing all the way back to Cylinder #1 top dead center of the compression stroke.

If you’re game, you’ll find the help you need.

I don't want to give up. This is the full story.

Last year I purchased a 1974 2.0 that had been removed intact, FI and all.

It did have a Bosch 022 905 205 F distributor, which I believe is not the original.

I never started the engine. Over the winter I built it to a 2056 using Ian Karr’s videos among other resources. I converted the intake to dual IDF 40’s and installed the 123/TUNE+ 4-R-V-POR distributor according to the instructions and even called 123 and they walked me through the installation and basic set up, it still won’t start.

I have tried every program advance curve I can find on the forums with no success. On one program it acts like it wants to start but just won’t get there.

I am an experienced mechanic but this is my first 914 Type 4 build.

How can I tell if the distributor drive gear is off? I triple checked everything when I assembled it.

[Superhawk996]

Cool - glad you don’t want to give up just yet.

Good community here will do our best to help get you going.

So based on background of rebuild and this engine never having run there are a lot of things that need to be worked through. This goes all the way back to how the cam is timed to the crankshaft. For now I’m going to assume the engine was assembled properly.

Going back to Emery’s question - have you tried to use some starting fluid (the real stuff - not brake cleaner or other crap aerosols)? What does it do when using starting fluid and static timing is set per 123’s advice?

[Superhawk996]

The dizzy drive gear installation and proper position is covered in both the Haynes and factory manual

http://p914-6info.net/PDFs/Group%201%20Engine%20914-4.pdf

I’ll post some better pictures of a properly oriented dizzy drive gear shortly (within next hour) for your reference of what it looks like vs the grainy photo above

The bottom line is the drive is asymmetric - the smaller section goes toward passenger side and is angled about 12 degrees counter clockwise to the case centerline. The drive gear has 12 teeth - so being off 1 tooth advances or retards the timing by 30 degrees. Likewise - these often get installed 180 degrees off.


Note: this needs to be set at TDC of cyl#1 compression stroke (ie both valves closed)

Note: If you have to re-index the drive gear — Be careful when you pull the drive out. There is a thrust washer on the bottom that will stay in the engine under the drive gear. Hopefully you’ve seen this washer before and are familiar with it from the rebuild.

[SteveNMaine]

Cool - glad you don’t want to give up just yet.

Good community here will do our best to help get you going.

So based on background of rebuild and this engine never having run there are a lot of things that need to be worked through. This goes all the way back to how the cam is timed to the crankshaft. For now I’m going to assume the engine was assembled properly.

Going back to Emery’s question - have you tried to use some starting fluid (the real stuff - not brake cleaner or other crap aerosols)? What does it do when using starting fluid and static timing is set per 123’s advice?

Thank you for the encouragement, sorry I have been so frustrated.

I went through the cam to crank and valve timing several times during assembly, so I am confident it is right. It has 120ish compression on all cylinders, the carbs are getting fuel and acceleration pumps squirt, but I have also tried starting fluid, the aerosol type.

I have set the dizzy according to the instructions with the help of 123 themselves and one of the curve profiles I created tries to start the engine but isn't quite there.

[Superhawk996]

Sort of assumed you knew you’re getting fuel due to the carbs but am still curious what it’s doing as you crank.

Are you getting any firing of the cylinders and it just won’t catch?

Is it backfiring?

Slow cranking without enough oomph to really spin it over ?

What do the plugs look like - are the wet and flooded & fouled or brand new white insulators with no evidence of combustion.

You say you have spark - is it hot blue / white or sort of weak and yellow?

If you can post a video to YouTube and link that would be extremely helpful

Likewise - you should verify the dizzy drive is installed properly. Again - pics are helpful to verify.