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> Wheel Alignment, Is this excessive camber?
fiacra
post Jul 5 2024, 08:23 AM
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1975 1.8 fully stock California car. I just put in turbo tie rods as well as a new trailing arm bushing, so alignment was needed. Not easy to find shops that do alignment on these cars, but a local member recommended a racing shop about 30 miles away and I took it there. They asked if I wanted it aligned for "street driving" and I confirmed that was the case. Let me emphasize that this is a stock California car in well maintained condition (a previous owner had it for 44 years and really took care of it) and I'm a really mild street driver. It is rare I'll use every one of the 76hp this can put out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . Street driving only, no AX, no racing. It drove fine getting to the shop, no pulling, no vibration, etc. They told me it drove "much better" after alignment, and that the alignment was way off, especially in the rear. I couldn't tell any difference in how it drove pre and post alignment, but remember I drive for fun and I'm not by any means an aggressive driver. I brought a bunch of 914Rubber sourced shims with me, but they needed none of them and in fact returned to me a bunch of shims that were already on the car. I didn't notice it at the time I got the car back, but the next day I could see the rear wheel stance was significantly different, with (in my opinion) a lot of camber. Prior to the alignment it had maybe 1-2 degrees of camber. Again, I can't tell any difference in how the car drives, but maybe I could if I really pushed it? My question is, is this correct? I've really not seen this amount of camber on other members cars. Also, I kind of hate the rear tires leaning inward look. Not sure if I should take it back and ask for this to be "corrected." Other options are to live with it, or take it to another shop. Any thoughts? Is this amount of camber correct?

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Superhawk996
post Jul 5 2024, 08:25 AM
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What the alignment sheet say they set it to? The spec is -0.5 degrees +/- 20 minutes. So -1 degree is max camber

By the picture alone, it looks like too much negative camber.

Not a matter of opinion, or how it “looks”. The shop should have set it to spec and have the numbers to prove it.
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fiacra
post Jul 5 2024, 08:28 AM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jul 5 2024, 07:25 AM) *

What the alignment sheet say they set it to?

By the picture alone, it looks like too much negative camber.


An excellent question. I just realized I left the paperwork in the car and it is currently at my second garage. I'll post that information as soon as I can get over there and look at it.
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technicalninja
post Jul 5 2024, 08:38 AM
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I'm gonna guess -2 degrees+

Be fine for an autocross go cart.

Rip up tires on a streetcar.

Here's a cheap test. Get a digital level and a couple of identical spacers.

I've used JENGA blocks to great effect.

Find FLAT concrete. IF you don't have a flat surface your SCREWED!

Measure yourself. Top to bottom on the exact same spot on the outer rim of the WHEEL ONLY!

I do full on alignments with a digital level, a tape measure, and an 8' florescent tube.

I don't have the ability to check or adjust caster, but many cars are not caster adjustable anyways.

With a little bit of practice, you can SMOKE a "normal" alignment tech and a 50K bed.
You will NOT be able to better a wizard...
The wizard doesn't need the bed either!

ALWAYS spin your wheels to check for run out. If the wheel, tire assembly has visible run out you're SCREWED and really need new wheels or tires. Normally it's the wheels that are bent when you have a run out issue.
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Superhawk996
post Jul 5 2024, 09:20 AM
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To my eye it looks like more than negative two degrees.

My bet is the jokers pulled all the shims and are too lazy to use the shims to set the camber properly; takes too much time.

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SirAndy
post Jul 5 2024, 09:26 AM
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QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jul 5 2024, 08:20 AM) *
My bet is the jokers pulled all the shims and are too lazy to use the shims to set the camber properly; takes too much time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)
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Montreal914
post Jul 5 2024, 09:45 AM
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Car seems lowered although difficult to say.

Lowered cars by geometry creates negative carber if I recall.
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burton73
post Jul 5 2024, 11:12 AM
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This is a picture of your car when I sold it to you. It looks to me like it is too much now.

Nice looking car.

Best Bob B

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JamesM
post Jul 5 2024, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE(SirAndy @ Jul 5 2024, 07:26 AM) *

QUOTE(Superhawk996 @ Jul 5 2024, 08:20 AM) *
My bet is the jokers pulled all the shims and are too lazy to use the shims to set the camber properly; takes too much time.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

That, or possibly if you/they lowered the car and you didnt provide them extra shims they just didnt have them to bring the camber back out again.

Check the numbers on the printout they hopefully gave you.
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rhodyguy
post Jul 5 2024, 07:07 PM
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What does the side view look like? Does the car sit level, nose high, tail low? How does it drive post alignment? Twitchy? Looks to have plenty of tire to well lip clearance. Run the correct cold tire pressure F&R. What size are the tires? Nice looking car.
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914_teener
post Jul 5 2024, 07:30 PM
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Ok....I've done 914 rear ends before. I know that car and yes....It's a very nice car and great previous owner.

So first...when you did you do the rear bushings, are you sure the trailing arms are spec and then..that the arm freely moves and does not "hang up" by binding the bushing?

Second...did you change the springs as well?

Finally...it's hard to tell because the pavement appears to be not level but from all appearances...too much negative camber. Stay with the spec settings for street driving even spirited street driving.

So as far as "finding somebody"...since an alignment on a 914 is a pretty easy thing to do...Nobody wants to set it up on a Hunter rack unless they believe you have the money.

So check your trailing arms and shims, if there aren't any of them then that's your problem.

I use a protractor and string....that's all you need.

PS. Last time I tried to get somebody to put the car on an alignment rack, I handed him the stock specs. When I did that the guy no longer wanted to align the car. This happend twice since he assumed the car was modified...which it wasn't. Basically I couldn't find anybody and Eric Shea encouraged me to do it myself....so I did.
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bkrantz
post Jul 5 2024, 08:16 PM
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It looks low (which adds negative camber) and improperly set (i.e. not enough shims in the outer mounting point).

So don't just go by the camber spec on the alignment report but also measure the ride height.
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fiacra
post Jul 5 2024, 09:03 PM
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QUOTE(914_teener @ Jul 5 2024, 06:30 PM) *

Ok....I've done 914 rear ends before. I know that car and yes....It's a very nice car and great previous owner.

So first...when you did you do the rear bushings, are you sure the trailing arms are spec and then..that the arm freely moves and does not "hang up" by binding the bushing?

Second...did you change the springs as well?

Finally...it's hard to tell because the pavement appears to be not level but from all appearances...too much negative camber. Stay with the spec settings for street driving even spirited street driving.

So as far as "finding somebody"...since an alignment on a 914 is a pretty easy thing to do...Nobody wants to set it up on a Hunter rack unless they believe you have the money.

So check your trailing arms and shims, if there aren't any of them then that's your problem.

I use a protractor and string....that's all you need.

PS. Last time I tried to get somebody to put the car on an alignment rack, I handed him the stock specs. When I did that the guy no longer wanted to align the car. This happend twice since he assumed the car was modified...which it wasn't. Basically I couldn't find anybody and Eric Shea encouraged me to do it myself....so I did.


@914_teener Interesting that you know the car and the previous owner. Other than a large binder of records, I have no backstory on the car. As he pointed out earlier, I bought it from Bob Burton, who essentially was just a middle man that was flipping it for a profit and didn't have much of the car's backstory. Care to share what you know? PM me.

To answer a few questions:

No, it is not lowered. The car is bone stock, other than the turbo tie rods. I did replace the Rivieras it came with, but the Fuchs were an option so I consider them stock. Trailing arms appear original to the car. I did the bushing on the right side, but not the left. The work was done a week before the alignment, and the alignment was done was last week. This is all recent work. It drives fine, and is not twitchy. I can't tell any difference between how it drives pre and post alignment. The ride height is equal between the front and rear, at least by eye. There is no indication that the pivot is binding on the bushing. In any case, I only did the one side and this is wonky bilaterally. It was fine when I drove it into the alignment shop, and didn't have any obvious excessive camber. I did not change the springs. I can check to see if there are any shims in place. I'll check the specs on the sheet I was given as soon as I can get back to the car, which is over at my second garage. I'll report back tomorrow. The consensus seems to confirm my feeling that this just isn't set correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to bring it back to the shop that did the alignment and have them fix their error. That seems the logical thing to do, although I'm game to try it myself. They deserve a chance to make it right. That's what I would want someone to do if I did something incorrectly.

Two pictures of what it looked like right before I took it to the alignment shop. This was after I finished the last round of work (new calipers, soft lines, turbo tie rods, MC, trailing arm bushing, changing to the Fuchs). To my eye the car looks level. Not a good angle to see rear wheel camber, but I can assure you the wheels were not leaning in.

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dr914@autoatlanta.com
post Jul 6 2024, 09:15 AM
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30 minutes neg camber only, if too many shims already raise the rear end with new springs or hike the spring plates on koni or bilstein shocks



QUOTE(fiacra @ Jul 5 2024, 07:23 AM) *

1975 1.8 fully stock California car. I just put in turbo tie rods as well as a new trailing arm bushing, so alignment was needed. Not easy to find shops that do alignment on these cars, but a local member recommended a racing shop about 30 miles away and I took it there. They asked if I wanted it aligned for "street driving" and I confirmed that was the case. Let me emphasize that this is a stock California car in well maintained condition (a previous owner had it for 44 years and really took care of it) and I'm a really mild street driver. It is rare I'll use every one of the 76hp this can put out (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) . Street driving only, no AX, no racing. It drove fine getting to the shop, no pulling, no vibration, etc. They told me it drove "much better" after alignment, and that the alignment was way off, especially in the rear. I couldn't tell any difference in how it drove pre and post alignment, but remember I drive for fun and I'm not by any means an aggressive driver. I brought a bunch of 914Rubber sourced shims with me, but they needed none of them and in fact returned to me a bunch of shims that were already on the car. I didn't notice it at the time I got the car back, but the next day I could see the rear wheel stance was significantly different, with (in my opinion) a lot of camber. Prior to the alignment it had maybe 1-2 degrees of camber. Again, I can't tell any difference in how the car drives, but maybe I could if I really pushed it? My question is, is this correct? I've really not seen this amount of camber on other members cars. Also, I kind of hate the rear tires leaning inward look. Not sure if I should take it back and ask for this to be "corrected." Other options are to live with it, or take it to another shop. Any thoughts? Is this amount of camber correct?

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Superhawk996
post Jul 6 2024, 10:49 AM
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Doh - accidental post
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jim_hoyland
post Jul 6 2024, 10:50 AM
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Yup, great car. Saw it at C&C at Crystal Cove before Bob bout it; super clean
See: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=343143&hl=



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fiacra
post Jul 6 2024, 03:03 PM
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OK, here's the sheet from the shop:

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Superhawk996
post Jul 6 2024, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE(fiacra @ Jul 6 2024, 05:03 PM) *

OK, here's the sheet from the shop:

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Gotta love it. So they made rear camber worse and out of spec on both sides instead of just one side. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/chair.gif) Left front camber is also jacked and out of spec. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)

So now the dilemma: return it to the folks that are incompetent and hope they somehow improved since your last visit or find an old school alignment shop that is competent.

I’ve lived this scenario multiple times in my life. Personally I’ve never had success trying to turn incompetent people around. Your best bet is to find a small shop, and talk to the tech beforehand so they understand the scope of the work (i.e. trial and error shims to set rear camber) and the specs (-0.5 degrees +/- 0.3 degrees)

Note: their specs for rear toe are also wrong. Rear toe should never be allowed to be toe out. So someone set up the specs wrong. Your car is fine (toe in) but I don’t like that they have set up the machine to allow toe out to be “in spec”.
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914_teener
post Jul 6 2024, 06:20 PM
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QUOTE(fiacra @ Jul 5 2024, 08:03 PM) *

QUOTE(914_teener @ Jul 5 2024, 06:30 PM) *

Ok....I've done 914 rear ends before. I know that car and yes....It's a very nice car and great previous owner.

So first...when you did you do the rear bushings, are you sure the trailing arms are spec and then..that the arm freely moves and does not "hang up" by binding the bushing?

Second...did you change the springs as well?

Finally...it's hard to tell because the pavement appears to be not level but from all appearances...too much negative camber. Stay with the spec settings for street driving even spirited street driving.

So as far as "finding somebody"...since an alignment on a 914 is a pretty easy thing to do...Nobody wants to set it up on a Hunter rack unless they believe you have the money.

So check your trailing arms and shims, if there aren't any of them then that's your problem.

I use a protractor and string....that's all you need.

PS. Last time I tried to get somebody to put the car on an alignment rack, I handed him the stock specs. When I did that the guy no longer wanted to align the car. This happend twice since he assumed the car was modified...which it wasn't. Basically I couldn't find anybody and Eric Shea encouraged me to do it myself....so I did.


@914_teener Interesting that you know the car and the previous owner. Other than a large binder of records, I have no backstory on the car. As he pointed out earlier, I bought it from Bob Burton, who essentially was just a middle man that was flipping it for a profit and didn't have much of the car's backstory. Care to share what you know? PM me.

To answer a few questions:

No, it is not lowered. The car is bone stock, other than the turbo tie rods. I did replace the Rivieras it came with, but the Fuchs were an option so I consider them stock. Trailing arms appear original to the car. I did the bushing on the right side, but not the left. The work was done a week before the alignment, and the alignment was done was last week. This is all recent work. It drives fine, and is not twitchy. I can't tell any difference between how it drives pre and post alignment. The ride height is equal between the front and rear, at least by eye. There is no indication that the pivot is binding on the bushing. In any case, I only did the one side and this is wonky bilaterally. It was fine when I drove it into the alignment shop, and didn't have any obvious excessive camber. I did not change the springs. I can check to see if there are any shims in place. I'll check the specs on the sheet I was given as soon as I can get back to the car, which is over at my second garage. I'll report back tomorrow. The consensus seems to confirm my feeling that this just isn't set correctly. I'm pretty sure I'm just going to bring it back to the shop that did the alignment and have them fix their error. That seems the logical thing to do, although I'm game to try it myself. They deserve a chance to make it right. That's what I would want someone to do if I did something incorrectly.

Two pictures of what it looked like right before I took it to the alignment shop. This was after I finished the last round of work (new calipers, soft lines, turbo tie rods, MC, trailing arm bushing, changing to the Fuchs). To my eye the car looks level. Not a good angle to see rear wheel camber, but I can assure you the wheels were not leaning in.

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I know the car from the So Cal area. That is has the original front "Blue's" is cool...down't loose them. I had mine restored.

My advice...don't go to the same shop and yes...it appears they did it wrong. The cars stock didn't have much rake in the ride height. The torsions can be adjusted if you don't like that...plenty of threads on it and very easy to do.

Good luck...but still my advice is learn to do it yourself.
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worn
post Jul 6 2024, 07:36 PM
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[quotey easy to do.

Good luck...but still my advice is learn to do it yourself.
[/quote]

Yeah. But that can be a headache. I suppose that learning to do it yourself will help you tell the professionals with access to lasers lifts and on line specifications how to actually do the work.
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