BAT - Twin-Plug 2.5L-Powered 1970 Porsche 914-6 Race Car Options

[gms]

Most Expensive chassis swap I have seen!

$92,000

Here

They didn't even try and hide it


dash vent hole...Not on a 1970!


1971 and later reinforcement

[Shivers]

Gaaads, a 92.000 fugazi.

[mb911]

Most Expensive chassis swap I have seen!

$92,000

Here

They didn't even try and hide it

dash vent hole...Not on a 1970!

1971 and later reinforcement

Ugh..

[sixnotfour]

Thats a wreck repair... or rusty pos with good front clip...
Race Car anything goes,,Race Day tomorrow... Buyer Beware

[Maltese Falcon]

...when Clip front or Front clip is all you can think about (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I learned about these unibody cars early on, in 1973. My friend Renee said that his Dad (body shop owner) was having a nice 914 put together for his birthday present. I went to check it out; rear section (from fuel tank back was red/ front section was white. Then he showed me the (looked like stick-welds) joint area using a salvage rear and a salvage front. Says this "Repair" is what is called a Clip. You could re-register Salvages as New Titles in Cali back then.
When it was finished he let me drive it for a day, with rattles and all...I still loved the 914= went out and bought a New dealer 1974 2.0 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
In the '80s a clipped 914 track car had a terrible shunt at a Big Willow club race and claimed the life of a ride-along passenger. The combination of a diagonal bar that crossed over the passenger + the impact on the (clipped nose) did that person in. Driver had major foot damage.

[bkrantz]

Thats a wreck repair... or rusty pos with good front clip...
Race Car anything goes,,Race Day tomorrow... Buyer Beware

Yep. Race cars are primarily speed tools. Those looking for pristine should stick with concours.

[SirAndy]

Thats a wreck repair... or rusty pos with good front clip...
Race Car anything goes,,Race Day tomorrow... Buyer Beware

Yep. Race cars are primarily speed tools. Those looking for pristine should stick with concours.

The point isn't "pristine" here though ...


The point is that the chassis is obviously from a later car and the front fender with the /6 VIN was added to it.

Not a real /6 ...
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Superhawk996]

Not a real /6 ...

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) someone is about to get got hosed.

[GregAmy]

My two fav 914World argumentatations:

- Which size tire should I run;
- What's your opinion on the Ship of Theseus philosophy?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

GA

[SirAndy]

My two fav 914World argumentatations:

- Which size tire should I run;
- What's your opinion on the Ship of Theseus philosophy?

"Ship of Theseus" is about slowly, overt time, replacing defective parts until the whole ship has been replaced.

That is not even remotely close to taking a later model bare chassis (they didn't even bother to use a '70 chassis) and simply grafting a /6 vin into the front fender.

One is a philosophical question about the passage of time and the inevitable decay of matter, the other is a (intentional) criminal act.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[Big Len]

Shouldn't this information be posted to the sale's comment section?

[gms]

Shouldn't this information be posted to the sale's comment section?

I tried

[GregAmy]

One is a philosophical question about the passage of time and the inevitable decay of matter, the other is a (intentional) criminal act.

This is why I love this discussion...

- What is the required "passage of time" where this practice is acceptable to you?
- What is the timeline in this particular case? I can only presume, given the accusations of criminal intent, you have proof of that timeline and intent?
- By stating "decay" am I safe in assuming you agree that replacing parts on crashed cars happening quickly counts, in context, as much as wood in a ship rotting over extended time? If not, why not?
- Show me one historical race car that has all of its original bits n pieces. Even better, show me one that does not.

(BTW, you may find that our positions on the practice - for street cars, at least - agree but that our philosophies may not. That's why such philosophical discussions are so fun).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

GA

Edit: just read the above reply, where the seller states it's the original chassis. If you guys are correct that many bits are indicating a later chassis, then I admit the above statement approaches a big misunderstanding, if not outright fraud.

Problem with a race car, though, is that there may very well be a good chunck of the chassis that's original but got replaced with later-model bits after crashes. That's where the philosophy comes in: how much of the original is required? Does one non-/6 part in a race car disable it as a /6, even with the original VIN? What if, for example, it was a factory race car that was crashed in 1973 and the factory chose to replace the parts with new parts off the line?

[Superhawk996]

This has been argued before.

VIN swapping is unethical and it is not legal. It's pretty simple really.

Race cars get into different territory since they often aren't registered with the state and are a means to an end on the track.

I don't know sanctioning body rules on VIN swapping. Is there a class where it the vintage 914/6 VIN would be required? If not, someone just paid 914/6 pricing for a 914/4 with an illegally pasted on VIN.

[gms]

One is a philosophical question about the passage of time and the inevitable decay of matter, the other is a (intentional) criminal act.

This is why I love this discussion...

- What is the required "passage of time" where this practice is acceptable to you?
- What is the timeline in this particular case? I can only presume, given the accusations of criminal intent, you have proof of that timeline and intent?
- By stating "decay" am I safe in assuming you agree that replacing parts on crashed cars happening quickly counts, in context, as much as wood in a ship rotting over extended time? If not, why not?
- Show me one historical race car that has all of its original bits n pieces. Even better, show me one that does not.

(BTW, you may find that our positions on the practice - for street cars, at least - agree but that our philosophies may not. That's why such philosophical discussions are so fun).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

GA

Edit: just read the above reply, where the seller states it's the original chassis. If you guys are correct that many bits are indicating a later chassis, then I admit the above statement approaches a big misunderstanding, if not outright fraud.

Problem with a race car, though, is that there may very well be a good chunck of the chassis that's original but got replaced with later-model bits after crashes. That's where the philosophy comes in: how much of the original is required? Does one non-/6 part in a race car disable it as a /6, even with the original VIN? What if, for example, it was a factory race car that was crashed in 1973 and the factory chose to replace the parts with new parts off the line?

I cannot say with certainty that the seller was the one that did the panel replacement. They didn't even replace the late door latches and 914/4 steering column! It is also obvious that the floor pan was replaced.

The lesson here is to get a PPI by someone who knows these cars well.

[ClayPerrine]

VIN swapping is unethical and it is not legal. It's pretty simple really.

Please clarify that... In the state of Texas, the official word is that the part of the vehicle the VIN is stamped into IS the vehicle. The rest of the chassis are parts that are added onto the vehicle.

So here in Texas, If I buy a right inner fender and a title, I legally own a 914. I can legally buy another chassis, and transfer the COMPLETE inner fender to that chassis and it becomes the 914 I own.

That is officially NOT a VIN swap. I am replacing parts on a car I own.

Now how ethical that is, well if I am not planning on selling the car, I don't care one way or another. If I disclose that the vehicle was repaired when I sell it, and I make it clear that it was an extensive repair, and outline all of what was done, then that is ethical.

But you need to rethink your "it is not legal" response. The legality is very much determined by the state you reside in.

Clay

[Superhawk996]

The legality is very much determined by the state you reside in.

Clay

I'm not a lawyer so I'll put that on the table right up front. What you state may be true as long as the vehicle never leaves Texas.

US Deptment of Justice and NHTSA also have purview over VIN's and VIN swapping.

Nissan and other automakers have sought out guidance w.r.t. replacing VIN's on vehicle that have been stolen - for which OEM still retained title. If it were as straight forward as you suggest I don't think the OEM's would be seeking guidance from NHTSA.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/nht94-337

and the followup response from NHTSA.
https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/10098b

Likewise here is a quick link to US Dept. of Justice that specifically references VIN law for US.

https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/crimina...ication-numbers

Section 511(a) of Title 18 makes it a felony knowingly to remove, obliterate, tamper with, or alter an identification number for a road motor vehicle or a road motor vehicle part. Section 511(b) of Title 18 creates exceptions for certain persons who engage in lawful conduct that may result in removal or alteration of an identification number. The legislative history is abundantly clear that subsection (b) is not intended to create a loophole for the operators of "chop shops." See H.R.Rep. No. 1087 on H.R. 6257, 98th Congress, 2d Sess. 23-25 (1984).

So it's not quite as simple as what Texas law is or is not. Especially, if the VIN is to transfer title from Texas to elsewhere.

Now do I think the Dept of Justice is likely to get involved with the 914/6 in this post. Not likely. But you will want a good lawyer when the conversation gets around to moving the window VIN tag over and/or reproduction of any emission cert sticker for a 914/6 doorjamb were that to happen to the property you might legally own.

I'll apologize if I'm coming off as a Smart Alec. I was once the victim of a 914/6 VIN swap and didn't find it to be amusing.

[mepstein]

If your rich, you send it to Poland and “re-body” the car. It’s done a lot. I have no idea about the legality.

[sixnotfour]

I have a speedster title and body tag...soon RD will have the whole chassis available..
vw buses, camaros, mustangs, mopars, ..its rampant.

[Superhawk996]

..its rampant.

Don't disagree, but, I don't think that defense is going to work out for Seinfeld. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)

I do agree with Clay's point about representation. The problem is that although the 1st owner may be ethical and represent the car as a rebodied whatever, somewhere down the line someone will buy that car and then flip it under the misrepresentation that it is something it is not. That . . . is what we just witnessed in the BaT auction.